Rules Addendum

[cityship]

Hey, everyone. Due to a recent kerfluffle last night, we've had to come up with some new policies.

We understand the "no politics in chat" rule can be frustrating at times, as it can severely limit discussions on recent events. However, you also have to realize that the OOC chat is a game chat first and foremost. It's a place for people to come in and have fun. Forcing someone who may just want to play and fool around in chat into a serious discussion about politics--no matter how important it may seem to you--is rude. Even if you feel something is very important, you don't have the right to make that decision for other people.

This is why we ban all discussions on politics in chat, as politics can often lead to very polarizing and heated arguments, which can ruin the fun of someone coming in to play the game. Banning individual discussions on a case-by-case basis would be both painstaking and inefficient, so the ban is for all political discussion.

However, that being said, we do understand that a number of people would like to be able to easily discuss recent events and even politics with fellow players, and so we've decided on a compromise in the form of an addendum to the chat rules. Basically, we will have a separate chat which follows all the normal rules of the OOC chat except the ban on political discussions. The purpose of this chat will be to provide a place to discuss recent events and politics.

The addendum in full is included here:

Addendum: Due to the need to discuss world news and events, a permanent, separate chat, meatshipworldevents, will be available. This chat follows all of the normal chat rules except the ban on political discussions. In the normal chat, you will be allowed to announce recent events that you would like to discuss in the news/events chat (ex. "Hey guys, X happened. We're talking about it in other chat."), but all actual discussion of those events must take place within the news/events chat. In addition, you are allowed to answer questions about what is being discussed in the news/events chat, so long as you don't actually go into details about the discussion itself. (ex. "Hey, what's going on in other chat?" "We're talking about X. Come on over if you want to talk about it.")

Also, just as a precaution, remember that harassing any other member for any reason, including political stance, violates our number 1 rule: Don't Be A Dick.

That is all.
--The Trans9 Mods

Comments

[for-magic.livejournal.com]

I have no comment on this policy in particular, I just wanted to let it be generally known that every time I skim this post, my brain condenses "kerfluffle last night" into "knifefight" and I spend a moment wondering what the hell I missed before I come to my senses.

[playsin-traffic.livejournal.com]

So, to clarify: does the blanket ban on politics extend to politics within fandom, i.e. Marvel Civil War or the treatment of mutants within the Marvel universe, both of which draw very heavily from real world political events and peoples, especially since I've seen conversations like that get heated? What about canons where characters are political figures? Where is the line drawn? Or does it only apply to real-world circumstances? What about the influence of politics and real world events on said fandoms and canons? Am I allowed to discuss the classes I take, considering how much politics is wrapped up in history and vice versa?

To clarify my own position: I don't like the rule. I haven't liked it since it was instituted. We're all adults and I'd like to think we can discuss topics as such. If the mods and other people want me to move to another chat to discuss something, fine. I don't want to run other people out of the game or out of chat.

[cityship]

The ban is on all discussions regarding RL politics. You can discuss IC and canon politics (otherwise, we wouldn't have an IC council or anything). However, the line has to be drawn there. Once RL politics are brought into the picture, the discussion will have to move to the other chat.

As much as it might suck, the fact is there have been times that bringing politics into chat has caused a great deal of friction and wank. While we'd like to think that every single player is mature and rational and won't get themselves worked up, we'd rather not take that chance in the normal OOC chat.

This is why we're providing the secondary chat, as a single place for people to discuss these things without forcing it on people who don't want to discuss it.

[ultradude.livejournal.com]

Could we turn this into a poll, and get opinions from people on both sides? This is obviously a point where there are opinions on both sides, where both sides have a point, and where neither view is held by just one or two people.

[starlightace]

To be honest, that's something that was raised, but... any poll probably wouldn't change our minds. Unless it was an absolute 100% unanimous vote to get rid of the rule - if even 5% of people would be uncomfortable with us getting rid of the no-politics rule, then I think it should stay in place. Because otherwise, are we just going to tell the people who feel uncomfortable at that talk "Hey, I guess you can leave the chat when we're talking about it"?

[birthmural]

Wow. I was going to send in an email but this is what happens when I take a nap.

So, I have some serious problems with this. I know you're trying to be compromising but- the ban was set into place because some people couldn't stop talking about politics when asked to. Now, if I'm wrong I'll eat my words, but I'm pretty sure that we're all mature people here and can change subjects if we need to- hell, we've done this a lot in chat. If asked, we readily switch subjects. Now, it's true that if people don't want to talk about politics then we shouldn't. However, there are times when people do want to talk about politics and no one there doesn't want to (like late night meatchat). To say that we can't talk about it then even though no one is there that doesn't want to talk about it- it's just not fair to us either.

The different meatchat isn't going to solve anything. I don't want to talk about politics all the time. Hell, there are times when I DON'T want to hear about it and will say so. But there are times when, as a natural evolution of the conversation I do want to. I think the blanket "no politics" ban has just gotten extreme. We're at the point where we can make comments like "LOL Colbert" but we can't say what we're laughing at.

In short, I think this is kin of like just treating us as kids. To say that even if the majority of us want the ban lifted it won't happen- when we are perfectly capable and willing to not talk about politics if someone in the chat is uncomfortable with it. And to be honest it really rankles that my opinion doesn't matter much, even if I'm in the majority.

I don't see the purpose of the meatchat for OOC coordination. It's true that it happens there and it's really useful. But by and large that's NOT what we're talking about. We're talking about our bad day or some crazy dream or kittens and yes, sometimes politics, even with the ban in place.

[birthmural]

Also in terms of clarity, I didn't see anything about saying that we are now allowed to make announcements and then point to the politics chat in the main post. I didn't know until I read the comments.

Also also, please keep in mind that a lot of us aren't acting upset because of the politics but because we're not allowed to speak our minds if we want to and others want to.

[starlightace]

Yes, we readily change subjects when asked. Now, I'm going to speak personally - as a player - since I can't, y'know, speak for anyone else. As I said below, I understand what it's like to feel really uncomfortable with any political chat and feel marginalized because I might not always hold beliefs that people might agree with, and I might feel like my point of view might be unwelcome. So when I'm in the OOC chat for a pretendy-fun-time hobby, I really, really don't want politics to come into it, where I feel like I'm in a situation I need to speak up to defend my point of view.

The point of a blanket ban is to remove subjectivity. If someone says, "can we talk a little bit about politics?" Well, how much politics is a little bit? "We can stop if it turns into an argument." When does a heated debate or discussion turn into an argument? If we set a new line, does a mod need to be in the chat at all times to make sure that the new line doesn't get crossed?

Do we make it a question of newsworthiness? People here are having a revolution and being killed, can't we talk about that? Well, say I'm a huge activist of womens' reproductive rights and I see a bill meant to limit abortion up in the Senate; maybe I feel that this is just as important as any revolution. And if I can't talk about it when the other guys can, then I'm going to get offended.

For that matter, every different mod would probably have different opinions on what was okay and what was not okay depending on who you asked. So even if a mod was in chat at all times, it might still be unclear.

The moment we get subjective is the moment a huge can of worms gets opened that I would personally rather stay unopened. When I'm in transchat I want to be able to goof off and chat about things without having to worry about the topic turning political in an instant - which, as we've seen, can happen.

And that's also why a poll wouldn't help either, I feel. Say we poll, and 60% want to repeal it, but 40% don't. Is that enough? What if it's 50/50? What if 60% of players want it to stay in place; would that be enough to convince everyone to stop arguing for it? It's subjective, and it'd only just make EVERYONE unhappy in the end.

The solution we came up with - where news can be announced but politics is still off-limits, and where there is a permanent chat for people who want to discuss politics - is the most fair compromise any of us could think of. Those who don't want to have to deal with politics don't go to the new chat. Everyone else can be in both.

It has nothing to do with us thinking that players aren't mature. Maturity has no bearing on this, actually. You aren't less or mature for not wanting to talk about politics.

[ultradude.livejournal.com]

You know what? I'll be more succinct.

Removing the rule won't lead to any sort of controversial discussions or discomfort as long as people speak up when they're uncomfortable, and as long as there is an unwritten rule to not wank about political parties. If someone new DOES wank? We tell them that it makes us uncomfortable, and they either stop, or they're dicks who need a talking to.

[starlightace]

Personally, I feel uncomfortable talking about politics at all. Other players have said that they don't feel like their opinion is welcomed because it's different from that usually held by RPers. So would you be okay with me saying "hey guys, don't talk about it?" whenever I'm in the room? How is that different from "Guys, politics :|"

You say "unwritten rule to not wank about political parties." Do you just mean American political parties? We have players from other countries. Can someone be against Hezbollah or Hamas taking power in countries in the middle east? Is that foreign events, or is that a political party?

All of this is subjective, and that's the entire reason for the blanket ban. Because the moment you start drawing subjective lines is the moment that people become very upset.

[fireforger]

Since the people who dislike this rule are the ones being the most vocal here - at sometimes giving the impression that everyone must be against it - I'd like to give an alternate viewpoint. I do agree with this rule. And right now I think the mods are going above and beyond what they need to by actually giving people a space for discussing this stuff.

There's a reason for the saying, "never talk about religion or politics". And that's because they are the things that are close to people's hearts. Fandoms? Sure, they mean a lot to me, but politics is about what I beleive. And so when you discuss politics, you're not just having a casual conversation. You are talking about people's beliefs, the stuff that forms the core of what they think is right and wrong. And inevitably, someone will have different beliefs to someone else. This is why people end up arguing - I've done it myself at times, and I know other people have too, because it's human nature for people to want others to see things the same way you do.

This is why I feel politics has no place in chat. We're an rpg game, not a political forum. We come here to have fun, not to discuss the serious issues. And quite frankly, if people want to discuss politics? There are many other infinitely more appropriate places. There's your own personal LJ. There's plurk, and twitter, and facebook. There's political forums, and news posts. And now, the world events chat.

People have also been talking a lot about how we should all have the maturity to be able to discuss this stuff calmly and rationally. Well, I feel that what we really need is the maturity to recognise what is an isn't an appropriate place to discuss a topic, and to respect the fact that not everyone wants to have a discussion about what is, essentially, their beliefs and values.

[birthmural]

Thank you for posting this. Honestly I wanted a discussion about this because I knew there had to be some people out there who agreed with the rule.

[birthmural]

I guess the core difference is that I see the meatchat as different than just a RP chat. We talk about a lot of different stuff so it seems to me that it would be a place to talk about politics or whatever. But maybe that's a carry over from other games I've been in where we would have late night talks about stuff like this. Honestly, I'm still not really getting how it's an issue if we stop talking about it if someone doesn't want to.

[vissernone.livejournal.com]

Co-signed.

And on a personal note, a lot of LJ, including a lot of fandom places, is a hugely political place. I also live in a highly political area. One of the things I like about T9 is that it hasn't been like that, and that I can feel comfortable wandering in and knowing that I won't have to defend my political views or quietly sit in and hold my tongue when someone says something I disagree with that. I know T9chat does not exist to be my nonpolitical haven, but it's an aspect I like about it and I would be sad to see it go.

[gaignun.livejournal.com]

+1 here.

I've been in games where we have separate rooms just for poliics/religion because of the number of people in the game's main chat room. It's not so much OPPRESSING FREE SPEECH!! as much as it's okay, people are uncomfortable with discussing this stuff in here (and you make a very good point about the big differences when it comes to politics/religion), but a lot of us are invested and would really like to talk about it. So let's get the group together to discuss it somewhere where everybody can be comfortable. Spin-off chat rooms don't even need to be mod sanctioned because it's discussion not about/outside of the game.

And since politics can be a very chatty subject, a chat just for it is great so people following ongoing things won't miss anything in a sea of a chatroom going on about the game and a ton of other random chatroomy things. And of course I would hope anybody choosing to go into a chatroom for politics would know what sort of discussions are going to be taking place. Since it's the obvious focus, yes there are going to opinions and friendly debates and as long as people are aware that that's going to happen and are prepared for it, then aces!

[i-saw-myself.livejournal.com]

+ eleventy billion. I hate discussing politics anymore. It's depressing to me. I want to be able to just derp around and talk fluff and fandom and RP.

And this is a game, and the chat is a game chat, and people shouldn't have to leave the game chat to make a chat actually just for the game to avoid the politics.

[everdistant_utopia]

I agree. I never go into a game's chat or else try to avoid it as much as possible for this very reason, and I've been avoiding this one because I didn't even know the rule existed. I'm pretty much glued to news sources throughout the day, and there are times I would like to get away from it all and enjoy a little escapism. Politics is the very last thing I want to have to deal with in an RP chat.

I never felt that I could simply say "Can we please not talk about this?" in the past because people seemed to be personally offended that I would dare even suggest such a thing. While that might not be the case in this game as far as I can tell, I've been burned enough times to not want to bang my head against that proverbial wall again. Once bitten twice shy, as they say.

[echoofaperson.livejournal.com]

I'm going to have to say I agree with the mod decision. Though as a player, I'd like to note something. Yes, I like keeping informed of politics. Yes, I went into the chat last night, but I made that choice.

I know you're all entitled to your own opinions, and I know you all have them, but last night despite all of the news that could have been discussed, half the time was spent with those of you who felt entitled to talk about whatever in chat bitching about the rule. And that made ME uncomfortable. Because you weren't upset because they'd modded badly, you were upset and whining because they hadn't let you have your way.

Not only were you completely reinforcing the mod point, but you were acting like children. The mods aren't your preschool teacher, if you hold your breath long enough, they aren't going to give into you.

There are days that the thought of news and all that is going wrong give me panic attacks. There are days I can't even think about it. And more than that, we're all human, there is no way we can keep OOC conflicts out of our IC play, no matter how good we are. Say an argument starts in chat, and your opinions differs completely from mine and you say something completely morally reprehensible to me. How can I deal with you for OOC planing, at that point? How can I play with your characters if I suddenly cannot stand you as a person?

We're here to play a game, and whatever point you may have had last night was lost completely to your continued childish behavior.

[birthmural]

Honestly, we were talking about how we could to the mods about it (or maybe that's my misremembering) and get an actual discussion about it. Or at least I was.

And to be totally honest? It's all ready happened before that someone comes into chat and gives an opinion I find morally reprehensible and I have problems with wanting to play with them. It's not just a politics issue.

And I might as well say this because it's kinda ticking me off now and it's not so good to bottle things in. But can we not resort to insulting people?

[vissernone.livejournal.com]

I think the thing it largely comes down to is people's identities. That's where politics (and religion) are really fuzzy issues. For example, saying you don't like X element of a fandom may bother that fandom's advocates, but ultimately that fandom is a really small aspect of their identity, whereas, for example, saying you don't like gay people feels like it would be a personal affront to some of the gay muns because it's a much larger part of their identity. Saying welfare should be reduced can feel like an affront to economically-disadvantaged players, saying the government should buy back guns can feel like an affront to gun owners in the chat. Yada yada. There are a thousand examples.

Politics is more than a discussion topic because it's so inherently tied in to who we are and how we experience the world and expect to be treated. Dajamun was right in stating that it's about beliefs at our core, and that's why political opinions are harder to shrug off. Some of us need to psych ourselves up to have a political discussion because it gets tiring to constantly have to keep quiet or defend the same viewpoint again and again. I'm unlikely to feel attacked if you disliked last week's SPN, but if you call my political party stupid I'm far more likely to feel defensive the next time I go in.

[birthmural]

HOW DARE ANYONE DISLIKE LAST WEEKS SPN IT WAS PERFECT

Sorry. I think we needed a defusing comment in here. Hit me if I'm wrong.

Er, not saying that YOU needed it but in general. And I was just feeling silly. O.K., I'll shut up now...

[starbolts]

Yes, this. I really wish I could separate it more, but everyone I know IRL has beliefs at the opposite end and paints anyone like me with a nasty brush. I think it would be really helpful if societies collectively could disengage from the hard-lines and feel less defensive when criticism comes up, but I don't see it happening.

At the same time, I don't see every news issue as falling into that category and being automatically too hot to discuss. But it's been laid out why it's much easier to have a blanket ban than judgment calls, so I'll accept it.

[i-saw-myself.livejournal.com]

Also after seeing it on the anonmeme post, I think anons have a good point about banning religion too unless talking about it in the context of characters. I think that's enough of a sacred cow that people are fortunately very mature about it, but it is kinda fair and it does cover the same ground.

Those are the two big'uns at any rate, and religion can be just as polarizing as politics, just as heated, and just as alienating.

It's at least something to consider, and more consistent.

[fireforger]

I said something along these lines somewhere up thread as well, but I definitely want to second this here.

[climbingthesky.livejournal.com]

The problem with the banning of religion, I think, is that a decent number of fandoms is built around it. Just for an example, the mods would have to also completely ban the discussion of the entire Shin Megami Tensei franchise except for the Persona titles, as well as all in-depth discussion of Xenogears and Xenosaga. I'm a non-practicing Shintoist, so the majority of Japanese fandoms in fact touch on my beliefs in one way or another.

Granted, the current ban also has a problem where we shouldn't be able to discuss any fandoms that don't rename their political forces with fancy names like... Earth Federation and Zeon, just to make a fandom example. Metal Gear Solid should be out of bounds, for one, as most characters in it have political motivations heavily based on the franchise creator's personal opinion on real-live politics.

I think the ultimate problem here is that it's impossible to achieve consistency at this point. No matter which other rules are added, people's discomfort with the rule boils down to the idea that a part of the game (which may or may not be a majority) has a privilege to demand that other people stop talking about the topic they dislike, while everyone else has a right to politely ask other people to stop talking about that topic without any actual guarantee that they will be listened to.