Special Discussion [PLEASE READ]

[cityship]

It has come to the mods' attention that there is a signficant chunk of players that have concerns about the health of the game and think it's dying. Unfortunately, this means that everyone's in a holding pattern waiting to see what happens and the problem with this is if we collectively do this as a game, we might not make it past rebellion.

So the mods have decided to address the issue head on to discuss it.

For our part, the mods want to encourage people to send in plots, tag around, invite people for June, and put up posts. We'd also like to take suggestions and answer questions and want to try to reassure you that we will do whatever we can on our end to make things fun. Our response times for plots and answering questions about things people can do in the game are down to only a few days (usually 3-5 for complicated issues/questions). Sometimes we can even get a response back the same day or just 1-2 for simple issues. If players want to run plots, we can definitely get an answer back to you very quickly, and in the case of milk runs, you pretty much have free reign to do those whenever or however you want. So now's the time for us to ask the question: what do you need from the mod team to have fun? What things do you want? What things might you want to see?

What things would players like to see from other players? This is also a good place to discuss that. As of right now, close to thirty people have posted for and made AC, which means that there are a good chunk of players that have have at least some interest in continuing to play. (Hopefully that will be reassuring to those of you worried about mass drops.)

At this point, the game is really only what we make it, and while there were a lot of problems over the last year, we are very dedicated to working on the ones that were on the mod end. The game can be made fun again, but now that the backlog of work and mod duties have been caught up, it is definitely something we need to discuss and cooperatively work on and confront head on as a group.

So discuss away, and please plurk and replurk this to your heart's content, point other players you know to it via AIM, etc. It really is something we need as many eyes seeing as possible.

EDIT: Please keep commenting, even if the mods don't respond to each of your individual comments. We're incorporating all the player feedback into our discussions about this in modchat.

EDIT 2, EDITINING: The mods are going to have a big modchat on Friday the 25th to iron everything out and probably have communication go up then or over the weekend.

Comments

[morphitudinous]

Hey everyone! It's Zoki. I just thought I'd say something, because I'm the one who brought this all up and kicked off the internal discussion. I thought you should know. After talking with mods and friends, I've realized that the doubts and fears that caused me to drop might actually be fixable. Maybe I'm not leaving after all---I definitely don't think I can handle the stress of the mod thing, but maybe I was too hasty. I gave up hope too fast.

Here's the part where I confess: the main reason I dropped was because I got caught up in an anxiety feedback loop about Trans 9's imminent death. I saw drops, not a lot of posts, and ill feelings and I held back and feared...and I don't think I'm the only one. I think I got caught up in worrying about the death and losing all of you so much that I forgot to relax and play.

In a way, I sort of became the Harold Camping of the game. Remember a year ago today, May 21st, 2011? (My apologies if you're already in the 22nd in your time zone). The final judgment was coming, the world as we knew it was supposed to end, and he knew the date. He used numbers to predict doomsday and some people got caught up in it and stopped living, focused everything on preparing for the end. I did that and forgot to have fun.

But the truth is...deep down, I don't really think that we're a lost cause. Maybe the world's not ending. We have a great mission before us: saving the universe as friends, kicking some butt, having some laughs, and all topped off with a cool ending that I still love. And I really think it can still work with a smaller crew.

But I let my inertia convince myself that it was soon going to be no crew. And...maybe that's not so.

[punchedoutdestiny]

Wingus here - and well, it does look a little shaky now. I've had dropping thoughts now and then, but I've kicked them back. I'm sticking with this thing to the end - whether that's the actual end, or the death of the game.

However, I ain't gonna do it sitting down.

Come ATP, I am going on an enabling frenzy. For one, I'm putting up an ad to try and draw in more robot pilots and pilots in general for Starfighter Command. I know there's a number of people out there that have giant robot pilot characters that wish they had a place to take them where they'd be able to keep their mech and actually be able to use it. And with the apps going totally open alongside ATP, and the new character introduction system not locking players down for upwards of a month, enabling should be a lot easier.

And other than that, I am gonna barge through the player post and try to grab anyone who has fitting characters. I encourage others to do the same.

It looks bad, but it's gonna take a lot more than this to finish us.

[morphitudinous]

Agreed. I'd really like to. A crew of pilots and hot-blooded heroes? Not that I want us to be all of the game, of course, but having a squadron again would be pretty cool.

There's nothing we can really do about this directly, so I guess I'll just explain why I don't put much effort into enabling. We're an old game. The 4th anniversary is coming up in a few weeks, and it's even longer if you count the first incarnation.

By now, most people who've been in RP for a while have already decided whether they'd ever consider joining or not, and our rep, especially over the past year, has been bad. We're cliquey, we don't want anyone new, we're dying anyway so why bother? That's really hard to overcome when trying to sell a game to someone.

---so I've been discouraged by a lot of failures, is what I'm trying to say. But there has to be a better way to sell it without looking like a tryhard. Hmm.

[soulinherfists]

Yeah, I know finding newbies is tough, but I think the rolling AC will give us a much better chance of getting some lasting new blood. I'm going to be trawling ATP too for people to fill in the spaces that need filling.

[on_your_nerves]

On cellphone so cant talk at length or punctuate but would a water cooler cr meme help right now?

Also we should revisit idea of mod plurk plurking announcements and calling attention to open posts and events maybe.

[morphitudinous]

I think one with an emphasis on ideas for open posts (especially milk runs) would help.

Most of our activity right now is in backtagged posts and closed plots, so to an outsider's glance, the game looks pretty dead.

[moltenman]

Now speaking as a somewhat older player I have hope for this game that isn't a lost cause. My own personal problems regarding the game has more to do with my personal inaction than anything from the mods or players. I plan to look at myself to see what I can handle and maybe re-evaluate where I am in the game. I don't plan on leaving however. Some future things regarding the game have me very much intrigued like say the villain ship and do not want this game to die before it ends.

Okay. I've babbled enough.

[morphitudinous]

No, that's fine! We're hoping villainship and stuff will start to spice things up.

[quixotically]

This game is what its members make it, and will become what its future members create.

What Chi said above... pretty much sums up my thoughts on this. I know I'm new and haven't played witness to past behaviors in the game, but I think maybe what I have to say will be an... interesting perspective, at the very least? Just keep in mind my comments are based on just from what I've seen.

Honestly, I think the mods have been on top of what they needed to do. The mod-run plots were up and ready for people to post. They can't make people post, though. There are types of events the mods could use -- randomizing characters into groups, for example -- but, in my opinion, they're supposed to lay down the groundwork for people to have fun and then keep the plots moving. It's up to the players to actually play.

It seems as though there aren't a lot of people who are actually reaching out to tag people outside of their current CR, except for maybe during podpops. I haven't gotten any CR with people I haven't talked to since I joined the game. I know I haven't been all over the place, but of the posts I have made, the only tags I've gotten? Are from people I approached during the friending and plotting meme. Which I put up, and while I would gladly do it again, I think it's a little odd that a new player had to make it.

In addition, I think AC is a little... lax? I know this game is slow, but considering you're only being asked to produce one post/thread per two months? I think if AC was raised, it would help motivate people to be more active, and thus get things moving more.

This game is what its members make it. It's true of any other game, regardless of age. If other old games can continue to flourish, I don't see why this one can't. It just takes everyone coming together and actually doing it, not just talking or voicing concerns.

tl;dr these are my suggestions:
> Schedule friending+plotting memes, at least once a month.
> Players need to reach out more and be willing to tag outside of their circles.
> Mod-run events involving randomized groups of characters.
> Increase AC.

[on_your_nerves]

I agree with a lot of this, though I definitely want to take in lots of opinions on some of the issues like AC to see what the players want.

As far as what you wrote though:

> Schedule friending+plotting memes, at least once a month.

We were planning on doing a watercooler/cr meme after each AC, but maybe it'd be better to do it monthly?

> Players need to reach out more and be willing to tag outside of their circles.
I agree with this. I also think we need to try to put up more day to day mingly kinda things.

> Mod-run events involving randomized groups of characters.
Also agree with this. We were already planning to have the future modrun plots on there after rebellion randomized by RNG.

> Increase AC.
I also agree with this but this is one I think will need a vote/lots of discussion to find a good middle ground that works for everyone.

[sawedoffgenius]

I agree with basically all of that. Huge blanket statement, I know, but you touched on a lot of points that ring true and point to deeper issues within the game.

One of the biggest recurring problems here is that newbies have a difficult time starting out, and that CR is slow to come by. I think they're really the same problem - like you said, OOC communication always precedes CR development. If you do manage to thread with someone spontaneously, you generally have to track them down and arrange to thread again. When I joined, the official stance on this situation was, "Well, bloody well track them down! What are you waiting for?!" Even at the time I felt this was a bad idea that could only lead to... basically, where we are now. We need to actively work on this as a game and, as much as the mods are doing all they can (hi), nothing we do is going to help much if the playerbase doesn't make a concerted effort as well.

> Schedule friending+plotting memes, at least once a month.

I will see your memes and raise you some structural changes. I don't know about other people, but the form-like convention for these things just does not work for me. As much as I am loathe to admit this, when those things come up I skim past practically everyone and only read/tag the posts for characters I already wanted CR with. I know I'm not alone here, because in memes past Clef has seldom gotten tags. Artoo, on the other hand, does very well. These memes are great for greasing the gears a little, but I don't think they're helping the people who really need it.

My suggestion: Ditch the form, replace it with a short blurb - possibly phrased as a want ad. "Snarky robot seeks people to troll bffs. Must have interest in AIs or electronic devices + patience for emotive beeping. Will bring own translation device if necessary. Contact: [my plurk/aim/email]" This format has the potential to be both informative and entertaining, and since it's short nobody has an excuse to skim.

> Players need to reach out more and be willing to tag outside of their circles.

Everyone says this, yet it does not happen. People pay a lot of lip service to tagging new people, but when you have a big open thread they're more likely to tag people they already have CR with (or want CR with) than unknown quantities. It's human nature. Telling people to reach out is about as effective as telling people who don't get tags to make more interesting posts. (In fact, when you confront people about contributing to one problem they will often blame the other.)

Suggestion: We can't make people tag each other, but it wouldn't hurt anything to add one little field to the AC form: "Did you make any new CR this [however long]?:" A simple yes or no is fine. Comments would still be screened and there would be no penalty for answering no. It might make people think more about their tagging habits, though. Plus, it would give us an idea of who the more open players are, which relates to the next point.

> Mod-run events involving randomized groups of characters.

This is tricky. We have enough trouble getting people to tag into plots they signed up for themselves. Just assigning random people to stuff? I have my doubts about this.

Instead: Use the system above to find out who the more open players are, privately arrange a plot with them and some random new(er) people. It would still have to be mod-run, but this might actually encourage people to reach out more. (You'll get to be in more plots!) This should create a positive feedback loop. In theory.

> Increase AC.

I hate that ACs exist. There, I said it.

That said, yeah, ours could really be tighter. Before we make them more frequent, though, I would like to see us try things like using different criteria. One open log or comm post per month is not a lot to ask and could significantly improve both CR building and overall game liveliness. I have concerns that it means that lots of people would post stuff and no one would tag it, but... well. Baby steps.

[sawedoffgenius]

I just have this to say:

I see you there.

You. Yes, you. Reading these words right now. We threaded together once.

I FUCKING LOVED IT.

(I also saw your thread with that other person, and that was good, too.)

People have said some bad things about you in the past, but I just want to let you know that you are appreciated. I like the direction you've taken your character, and I want to thread with you some more.

I can say all of this with confidence because I know that it's true for a lot of people here. In fact, the only thing that isn't true is perhaps that I've threaded with you - maybe I haven't. It doesn't matter, because I've seen everyone's tags floating around the comm, or posting around on Plurk or whatever and I can safely say that everyone in this game? Is good at what they do.

I can't promise to advertise on ATP or enable a bajillion people, but I'm actively making it my goal to play with everyone in this game. EVERYONE. I don't want T9 to die because players are too worried that they're being judged. I will not judge you. Ever. No, not even you, who think you're so unpopular that I can't possibly be talking about you. I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU.

Let's play together.

+1

[morphitudinous]

I'm gonna pledge to involve myself in as many open posts that go up as well. You're worth having fun with.

[flunkingspanish]

I'm a bit of a slow-tagger (okay, more than a bit...) but I think the game still has go in it.

As one of the longest-term players, my primary problem right is mostly time -- the end of the quarter's coming up, my work actually has work for me to do, I'm in a couple other games, and sometimes I just need to veg out on the internets rather than tag things.

Perhaps we could do something like the Support Group Meme that popped up on bakerstreet in our own crack comm? Rather than listing "my character is interested in X, Y, and Z", it could be a more organic way to tag out of comfort zones and figure out which characters should be thrown at each other IC.

[anwei]

Crack premise: we're supposed to have an AI Therapist now, right? Maybe it starts ambushing people and putting them into 'group therapy'!

[flunkingspanish]

Additional suggestion: Maybe we should have a page on the Wiki or something with suggestions for ideas for open posts? I know that I've defaulted more than once to "my character is wandering around the ship, what is YOOOOOOUR character doing when s/he finds them?", which puts the work on the other party, which isn't really fair. There are certainly things that everyone does in reasonably public places -- like eating, or cleaning things, or entertaining themselves by reading the graffiti in the Public Bathroom. It might be nice to have them all in one place for the "I wanna do something, what should I do?" brainfarts.

[governorkang]

I want to add that there will be further plot opportunities with the conclusion of Natural Born Ghyyler, and if people are okay with it, we could make some of the character selections for these plots random (with permission from the players, of course, to randomly put them with other characters). Maybe we could do a randomizer meme where players volunteer characters, they get teamed up, and then the players get to make up some of the mission stuff together?

[grimbiker]

I just got back from 9 hour bus ride uhm- two hours ago so forgive me if I am near incoherent. I'll try and be short.

I think we're in a feedback loop of "it looks bad now" so everyone is hesitant to post thinking "well I don't know if everyone else is still invested or just looking to see if it'll still be alive and kicking." I do think we can continue the game even if it dwindles to only a handful of active players (I'll probably be one of them assuming my RL doesn't act up). That said it's definitely a serious concern. I definitely don't *want* it to dwindle down any more.

Uh, I know we were talking about this on a plurk and while I've been against stricter ACs in the past I'm actually more open to the idea of a once a month open post or two threads type of AC. It makes more sense as we're heading into end game and the plot picks up. I noticed that Fauxbellion was slowly to kick off. I'm guilty in that as I held off with Sirius, thinking I'd have him charge in when things had moved further along because of insert IC reasons here. I think that was partly people being hesitant/slow/not as invested/not checking/whatever and also some confusion over what all would go on (I know after the change in everything I was a little confused about fauxbellion stuff). So my concern is yeah, getting more people posting and progressing mod plot stuff faster.

And in a things we would like to see I was going to do bring this up before, then I got sick, then I went on vacation BUT NOW I AM BACK SO Let candy mountain revive your enthusiasm.

[on_your_nerves]

Also, Lantern Plot just got approved!

Is here for discussion.

It's running June-July, will have 8 random people RNG-selected (with me and Kaylin's two characters) and be very npc intensive. I'll actually be doing signups uuuh. Now. XD

[on_your_nerves]

Here are my thoughts on stuff as both a mod and a player.

As a mod, I've seen a lot of ebb and flow to the game over the years. Believe it or not, there were times it was slower and deader than this, especially during the first year, where even the mods were dead sure it was dead in the water, but we managed to kick it into gear again with the players kind of working together to give the game some CPR. And while I've seen some people that lack enthusiasm (understandably after all the problems) I've also seen people plotting furiously, so I do think it has enough kick left to make it to endgame. Also as a mod, I promise we'll keep approval times down to a minimum or find other people to mod who can. We are very serious about keeping mod activity up however we can so that the structure works and people can do whatever they want to have some fun.

As a player, I think some things could change to make things better.

1. I think Mala is right about the AC. Some options for a new AC others have made on plurk are:

- one open post per player
- one open post per character
- one open post per player or tagging two threads with IDK ten comments or something
- one open post per character or tagging two threads, etc etc

Then figuring out if it'd be monthly, bimonthly, or trimonthly. If anyone has any other suggestions, here's a good place to list them so maybe we can discuss them or have a vote or both.

/modhat back on. Going back to a mod standpoint, I think the mods need to make a call to definitively make it more stringent with some emphasis on open posts, but leave HOW stringent up to the player vote, but that's just my individual opinion. /modhat off.

Also maybe someone putting up a mingly post thing can count as an open? If if they're not tagging around all over, facilitating people mingling is still helpful.

2. Like I said to Mala, I think we need to push up friending/CR meme/watercooler whatever to monthly, maybe? We can add that to the mod schedule/tasks if people think it's a good idea.

3. Not as a mod, but as a player, I have always felt a little bit overwhelmed by running things or setting up posts. When I was in big casts, I tended to play major or main characters like Aang for the Avacast. This isn't even about knowing the setting well, either, because I've played at other games I was less familiar with and started getting the same burnout just because I'm good at figuring out scenes and plotting. With plots and things, a lot of times I wind up organizing plotty things but these things can be a bit more of a team effort with players helping the plotrunner set up posts and all.

This isn't really a criticism of anyone in particular, but I do think we have a slight problem of certain people being good at running things for other players but because people rely on them to do it a lot and sometimes are nervous about giving it a try, it can lead to burnout to the people who do it a lot. The nervousness is understandable, but I think another thing that might help is people working a little outside of their comfort zones to not just tag things or new people but also to run things. Not everything has to be a giant plot, either, so it's not really that hard to do a tiny one here and there. People can run little minimissions or milk runs that are just 3-4 characters or even a random pair off of 2 and choose the other people by RNG. With the milk runs, the one Amit, anna, Kaylin, and I has been really easy and lowkey so far, with us all helping push IC actions along, so I can tell you that it's actually pretty laid back and easy.

Even if there's a main plotrunner for things, it'd possibly provide people more opportunities for stuff to do if we tried to treat things like player plots as a more cooperative effort so players don't get burnt out.

And uuuum, that's all I can think of for now, sorry for my wordiness but I'm too tired from work to really cut it down.

[splendid_roman]

I really hate the idea of AC including putting up open posts. Just because I'd rather tag other people's posts than put up one of my own - if you put up an open post you don't know how many people are going to tag so you have to make sure you don't have too many threads on when you put it up, whereas tagging other people's means you can be more sure of how many threads you have on.

And, I don't know how much this is true, but I worry that it would mean everyone puts up posts and no one tags them.

[mercyisweakness]

Well, as a new player, I can only say that I am mostly slow because of this character, who is so terrible I like to keep a slow pace with her, and because I am currently playing two other games.

That said, I really don't know past behavior with the game, so indent think I'm in the know-how to critique.

I have more things to write about but I have some things to do, so I'll check back in with a more cohesive reply.

[mercyisweakness]

OKAY SO

my big problem so far is that everything seems to be aimed toward nothing but plots? I mean, plots are fine and great and all, and provide CR and such. But seriously, when I'm dealing with a dangerous, antisocial character like Crematia, having her constantly thrust into the mechanics of the game wide plot is not going to really help her move along. She's a pain in the ass. She's mean, is fond of torturing, ect ect. Things like the tournament is helpful as a starting point, but I still have to deal with her aggression issues in an IC matter, when Stacy strictly prohibits things like that shipside.

I guess my thing is that we should have some general mingling posts. Stupid stuff! Like a banquet. Or a drinking game. Something that give offers for some rewards. Something that make antisocial characters like mine a reason to really go out and mingle. Because in all honesty, my character doesn't care about the fauxrebellion unless there is some benefit for herself, or have any real close CR connections. Most of the CR issues is my fault, but I like some more opportunities from the game layout that gives the chance to mingle more often, or otherwise my character will just sit in one place and just snarl at everyone until Stacy forces her to go on a mission

sorry for the meta talk about my character and the tl;dr, but this is just how i have felt in the game so far.

[forging_on]

I'm new and haven't been around much this month, but one thing I'd like to suggest is some kind of encouragement to do posts that aren't based around plots. This game is all plot plot plot all the time -- which is cool, definitely, the most plotty game I've ever been in -- but it might encourage some more interaction if we did more stuff like the movie night a while back. Something that you don't have to sign up for, something where your character doesn't have to have a specific ability to participate. I think it will really help when we go to rolling apps because we'll have more general welcome posts.

And speaking of posts, I'd love to see an activity option that involves them. Maybe something like 1 post/2 months or 2 threads/2 months, so people who have trouble writing posts will have another option. I was talking with Chi last night and she said, "Oh, this character--" and I was like, "We HAVE that character? I had no idea!" And that's not the first time this has happened. So encouraging posts might help get rid of that problem. Sure, you could say that people might make posts and get no replies, but I've been in several games where posts are a requirement, and that's never been a problem. If you post, someone will comment!

[on_your_nerves]

We actually used to have a lot of posts that aren't plot-based but yeah, that is part of the problem lately. We really need more general interaction posts.

[bonnypiperlad]

I already mentioned my thoughts on ac up here, but I also wanted to put out the idea of re-introducing the thread lottery. Either as Shae suggested for missions, or as it used to be way back when where people would volunteer to get randomly paired up with other people and then they'd work out an idea for a thread. Some really fun CR can get built that way, and I think it could be something that would help.

Friending and plotting memes could also be helpful, but I think I also have to agree that changing the way it's set up might be a good idea, pretty much for the same reasons Chi mentioned up above. Maybe combining that with a thread lottery might work as well, for people who want to get CR but don't necessarily have specific ideas on what to do during the meme?

[badassfreakingoverlord]

I've already expressed a couple of comments earlier about AC and so forth. I'll keep them to their own place there. This is a different kettle of fish.

First, we have become, or are in grave danger of becoming, That Game Where You Have To Have Plurk To Get CR. From my own perception, a huge number of our posts -- particularly our closed or semi-closed posts -- come from "let's do this" or "I will make this post" discussions on plurk. This is not in and of itself a bad thing; plurk is a useful communication tool for exactly that purpose. But as this very post evinces, we have great ideas that are not being communicated to each other for stuff that can happen. Plots get bogged down because there isn't a central place to discuss them. People get worried about contacting people through other means.

People have proposed things like the watercooler post, but I agree with the earlier-expressed sentiment that they usually only result in the same people talking to the same people. So the question is, how to address it?

For one, I suggest adapting the contact list to somehow indicate what a preferred method of communication should be. I myself feel awkward looking at someone's email and wondering if I should use it - or should I IM them, but maybe they don't recognize my SN and will ignore me -- or should I plurk them, but hey, the contact list doesn't HAVE plurk. In lieu of that uncertainty, let's ask everyone "how should we contact you?" and clearly mark that so I know what the best way to get in contact with the other person is, and have alternate ways to fall back on if I need to.

For another, possibly a separate plotting community would do us good. Someplace we can just toss out ideas, or say, "Hey, I'd like to do an open post with X, would anyone be interested if Y scenario happened?". We could always use the OOC comm, but I feel that the greater volume might drown out what are otherwise important notices such as hiatuses or mod communications, plus there's a certain hesitancy to just post this sort of thing to an 'official' comm, if that makes any sense. This would be a free-posting, no-judging comm. Imagine it like plurk or a chat room, just... on a comm.

My other point is something I feel needs to be said but hasn't yet: all our problems and the solutions we're discussing, be it increased AC or better ways to discuss plots or how to keep people active in plots or all of this... it's all just symptoms of the greater problem, which is that people aren't posting and aren't tagging at anywhere near the volume this game should see, and HAS seen, at its numbers.

We're trying to encourage that -- hell, we're even trying to force it, and I don't say that negatively, because I'm in favor of increased AC -- but ultimately, if people don't find the desire and motivation to bring themselves back to activity, then it will be all for nothing. This, then, is my plea: if you aren't as active as you'd like to be, or ought to be, then please, take a moment to figure out why that is. And if it CAN be addressed, then let's address it.

If you aren't clicking a character, let's find a place for them. If you're swamped OOC, well, that's understandable, we can tell the difference between an active but slow person and a person who's just dipping in, if rarely, to make AC. If the spark has gone out of the game for you, let's figure out why, and what we can do to get it back.

Changing the game in the ways we have proposed treats the symptoms. The cause needs a treatment too. Let's not lose sight of that.

[punchedoutdestiny]

I like the idea of a plotting-specific comm, as it's done pretty well over at Imperial Saga from what I've seen.